The Four Worlds Podcast
The Four Worlds Podcast explores how a simple idea can grow into something that changes the world. Each episode takes you on a journey—from the spark of inspiration, through the creation process, innovation challenges, and to the path of real-world production.
From sketch to shelf and prototype to product, join us as we uncover the stories behind breakthrough inventions and innovations with the creators, engineers, designers, and visionaries who bring them to life.
The Four Worlds Podcast
The Fungi-Powered Fashion Revolution at Hydefy
Learn more about: Hydefy
Meet Rachel Lee, Founding Partner and General Manager of Hydefy, who's challenging conventional leather production methods. Step into a world where fungi and sugarcane waste become luxury handbags that walk the Paris runway with Stella McCartney. đź‘ś
Rachel reveals how an extremophile fungus, discovered in Yellowstone National Park's volcanic hot springs during NASA-funded research, became the foundation for a revolutionary material. This microscopic marvel grows in just 2-3 days and a natural filamentous structure resembling skin, making it the perfect candidate for sustainable leather development. After nearly three years of extensive R&D, this scientific curiosity was transformed into a commercially viable luxury material.
What makes Hydefy particularly compelling is how it carves out a vital "third category" in the materials landscape. Traditional animal leather brings ethical concerns and significant environmental impacts, while most vegan alternatives rely on petroleum-derived PVC or polyurethane with their own environmental drawbacks. Hydefy's fungi-based approach eliminates these compromises, using fermentation and sustainable inputs to create materials that create materials that are durable and stylish without the ecological baggage without the ecological baggage.
The fashion industry is responsible for approximately 10% of global greenhouse gas emissions. But Hydefy demonstrates how innovation can address these challenges while delivering premium materials that meet luxury standards. Capable of creating a wide range of looks, from traditional leather to experimental finishes with optical effects resembling oil-and-water surfaces, these materials stand on their own merits, not just as eco-friendly alternatives. ♻️
Discover more about how Hydefy is transforming our apparel world at hydefy.com – because the future of fashion isn't just being designed, it's being grown. 🍄‍🟫✨
Welcome to another episode of the Four Worlds podcast. Joining us today is Rachel Lee, a founding partner and general manager with Hydify. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us.
Rachel Lee:Thank you for having me, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing:So Hydify is a responsible materials company that uses fungi-based materials to create an alternative to leather. Rachel tell us more about that material and how nature is truly at its core.
Rachel Lee:Absolutely. You know the material that we have. It is primarily fungi and sugarcane inputs driven. So when we thought about why we got started on this, you hear about leather quite a bit, right, we probably have a lot of items in our households, for example, and we wanted to think about how to create like a third category for consumers. So in our lives there's animal leather absolutely beautiful material, but, depending on where you're getting it from, there's some ethical environmental health concerns in its manufacturing process, not even talking about the greenhouse gas emissions. And you know there's a lot of vegan leather out there and I think most consumers are gradually becoming more aware of it. But a lot of the vegan leather is made out of PVC, polymyelon chloride or PU polyurethane, which comes with its own health and environmental concerns, particularly PVC. So at Hydify we were really passionate about the idea of how can we give consumers something else? So that's what got us started in thinking about making fungi and other plant-based materials, starting with leather.
Steven Ruffing:And I just want to know how do you even get to that point? I'm sure it's a lot of research, a lot of testing, but how do you get to that point where you think of the idea let's try fungi as an alternative?
Rachel Lee:Yes, yes, and there's also some other amazing innovators out there that's working on fungi. There's some mushroom-based leather that you may have heard of. For us we were a pretty unique situation and fungi was a natural starting point for us, because we actually have a parent company called Nature's Find and the Finder Group and the whole company uses this new extremophile from Yellowstone National Park. So the fungi that we use is actually what we call an extremophile, so it survives in very extreme heat and acidity and it was in some of the geothermal hot springs Yellowstone National Park. And one of the original founders, amitra Spines. He was doing PhD research supported by NASA and discovered this extremophile that was super resource efficient.
Rachel Lee:So when you think about growing anything, whether it's a cow or protein source, anything we live in a world with, you know, increasingly fewer resources how do you, how do you deal in that world? How do you grow something with fewer resources? So when this mixed stream of file was quick to grow it grows within two to three days. It's it means lower carbon, water, energy footprint, et cetera, and it had interesting properties, such as it has all the essential amino acids. So the food side of the business was already starting to look into creating food products with it.
Rachel Lee:But if you look underneath the microscope it has this filamentous structure that kind of resembles like fibrous network, like skin, and that's what got. That's what sparked the idea of the biomaterial side of the business, which eventually grew into what's Hideify. So we thought you know what, if we treat this like a skin instead of an animal, like cow hide, can we make a material out of it. And then over time we went through a lot of R&D iterations and the material evolved into something different, with different than what where we started. But that was the genesis of thinking about this extremophile and bringing this new to world organism to the market.
Steven Ruffing:And you talk about going through the R&D process, finding out, coming up with the idea. How long, approximately, did that process take? Because it really it doesn't sound like an easy process. Of course, nothing is ever easy, but this one does seem a little complex. So how long did that process take, from idea to starting to produce something?
Rachel Lee:Honestly, longer than I thought it would and longer than we probably wanted. And it's a little hard to say definitive numbers because I think in the beginning it was very bare bone R&D lab where we did a lot of experiments and then a lot of it was to create proof of concept, to even see is there there, there, to convince the company to potentially invest more resources into growing the business and investing in R&D. And I think there's a lot of lessons I learned from that the business and investing in R&D, and I think there's a lot of lessons I learned from that. I would say a lot of the work got accelerated when we had some of our rockstar scientists, especially with people with experience in commercialization and with PhD backgrounds, join. So then, once you have the magic of having the right team, we also made a couple of pivots and once we did that, I would say, you know, probably around three years time, wow, getting it and you're spot on.
Steven Ruffing:There's a lot of lessons in transforming a fungi into a leather-like material. I mean, really, when you think about it three years I'm sure where you're at right now, the point you're at with Hideify do you look back and say, wow, that three years really did go quick.
Rachel Lee:When all is said and done, yes, because not only the guy joined the company Nature's Find in March to May of 2020. And it feels like a different point in time, but it was peak pandemic, so there was also a different period of the world of working in a lab looked very different. There was also a different period of the world of working in a lab looked very different. And the time really does fly because each phase feels different and exciting and we're in a privileged position where we get to interact with a lot of brands that come with different stories, that come with slightly different things they're looking for, so it feels like we're working on many products at once. So time really flies when you're having fun, like to say.
Steven Ruffing:Yeah, I mean it's cliche, but it really is the truth. You're obviously doing something that you like, something that you're passionate about, and it's a part of your personal background or your environmental philosophy. So take me through how you personally have helped influence the impact of Hidify you personally have helped influence the impact of Hidify.
Rachel Lee:I'd like to think that I had a pretty big impact. So my background actually was in a bit of more in food. So I was for many years I was passionate about improving food systems and health and human lives. So that's what naturally led me to meet with Nature's Find, because I was so excited about innovation, because we talked about world with increasingly scarce resources and it's how we use those resources and do it in a way to benefit people. I think that's where innovation comes in.
Rachel Lee:So Nature's Find was working on this really promising project of bringing a new to world protein, and there was a wave of food tech right, a lot of energy. There's a lot of amazing innovators working in this space and it felt like there's an opportunity to bring that similar energy to the material space, because fashion not only employs a lot of the global workforce, it uses a lot of the earth's resources, has a deep impact on environment. I think we see a lot of the statistics around it being responsible for 10% of greenhouse gas emissions go around, for example. So when the opportunity came to essentially build this startup within a startup, to start Hydrofy and build it to a biomaterials business from nature's Fine. It felt like a dream role to help that and from there, of course, got other teammates to join, built the team and then we built a product.
Steven Ruffing:And when you talk about the climate impact that, let's say, the fashion industry, the leather industry, has on the environment, is that one of the reasons why you chose fashion and, in particular, leather? To start with Hydify?
Rachel Lee:Yes, and I think there was a lot of, you know, being in the right space at the right time.
Rachel Lee:So fashion, a lot of leading fashion groups, especially the European ones, because they either set public targets around 2030 goals around emissions and environmental footprint and or, because of upcoming regulations, they are forced to look at their supply chain in a more meaningful manner and within that space. So there's that demand and the pull from the potential consumers not only some consumer demands to be animal and cruelty-free, but also increasing demands to use less toxic chemicals and more, less of petroleum-based inputs, because the alternative, like vegan leather, is petroleum derived and then compared to, you know, polyesters or nylon or other type of textiles that are petroleum driven. I think, with consumers with leather, we are already open and used to the idea of leather being from multiple sources. So you have, like calfskin, lambskin, you have exotics, like reptilian leather. So, and lastly, because there's a wide range of leather types, there's also a wider range of willingness to pay. So, for all of those reasons, it felt like leather was the right place to start.
Steven Ruffing:Absolutely. When you're producing these fungi-based materials, specifically fungi-based leather, do you try to replicate maybe what a normal you say reptilian leather looks like or cow skin leather looks like. Do you try to replicate that to kind of make it still seem like it's not the real thing but a traditional leather?
Rachel Lee:Yes and no.
Rachel Lee:So, when you think about having an impact, a lot of it. To have an impact, we need to replace or become a meaningful part of a brand's supply chain and their materials. And a lot of what they have are the traditional looking things, whether it's like a cow feather, like a traditional pebble grain or just a traditional grain, and I think there's that demand from some brands. At the same time, if you and I are carrying around a bag or a shoe made with just black leather, look, we don't know what that's from. So if you want consumers to want something, I think there's some interest from brands to make it look different. So I'm at Hideify that's one of the choices we made to give brands a few different options. So if you want something that really looks like it, we'll deliver on that. But at the same time, if we want to create something that not only is made from something different but looks different, let's also work on that.
Steven Ruffing:Yeah. So what are those things that you're trying to test or develop that does make Hideify stand out from a looks aspect Because obviously now we know it stands out because it's fungi based leather but as a visual standpoint, what are? What is your team doing to kind of stand out and make sure someone looks at a leather bag or a fungi based leather bag and say, oh, that's made from hideify yes, so we and some of this will need to be a partnership with the brands and fit their brands identities.
Rachel Lee:But one of the things, if you come swing by our booth at a trade show, for example, that you'll see is we have a lot of traditional looking materials with different colors, and we also have a catalog of things that play with optical effects. Catalog of things that play with optical effects. So things that may look like oil and water on a surface or things that look feel more like leather but look like crushed velvet, for example. So these are things where we're not reinventing the whole technology. There's some existing partners out there that can help us achieve some of these optical illusions, but our idea was let's apply that to a new material because the synergy of that could be something that's interesting to brands.
Steven Ruffing:Yeah, definitely so. And you talking about partnerships, tell everyone about the partnership that you have going on right now.
Rachel Lee:Yeah, so I can talk about our partnership with Stella McCartney, which has been a fantastic one.
Rachel Lee:Our partners have been wonderful. Some I cannot name right now because until the products hit the market. But you know it's a dialogue and we get a lot of feedback in terms of the hand feel, gloss, the colors we want to do. And then we also inform brands about how to work with a fungi composite material. Stella McCartney in particular they are creating elevated. They're known for using future forward and art friendly materials in very high end fashion collections and they have high standards. So we needed to have created something that has a good look, feel and performance.
Rachel Lee:So if you're asking about the latest launch that we had, that one was a pretty, pretty fun one to work with, though stressful at that time, because we actually saw we met them last summer and there was a unique opportunity where they were launching a new style of a bag, so that's the new rider collection.
Rachel Lee:So we had this opportunity, if we could meet the timing, to be a new type of material in a new type of bag, and they also happened to fall in love with the silver metallic that we had, which was very experimental at that time. So they said let's get this on the September Paris Fashion Show and this was June when we talked about this. So we have a team that loves the challenge, and an amazing one. So, yeah, three months later, I saw it go down the runway and we did the global sales for the summer collection and I saw the magic that can happen when you have a supplier and a brand working as partners that are motivated together with a goal in mind. So I find all of these partnerships really exciting because everyone is trying to work on bringing a new innovation and trying to introduce people to new types of sustainable materials. So appreciate all of these partnerships.
Steven Ruffing:So clearly there was some challenges, very stressful moments. Go through some of those hurdles, some of the biggest hurdles and challenges that you had to get over throughout the development process and the creation process.
Rachel Lee:Yeah, where should I start?
Steven Ruffing:Yeah, right, Is there what too many to count?
Rachel Lee:I think the overall is that, you know, like with many new innovations, whether it's in a textile or something else, for us there was no playbook Because, also, we were one of the earlier movers and we actually built it in, quote unquote, stealth.
Rachel Lee:We were in a very grateful position to get this support from a parent company, so we focused on the product.
Rachel Lee:But I think there are a couple of challenges to bringing some of these minutes that you need to make sure that performance is table stakes, so finding the right formulation to get it to be strong and then, second, finding the right equipment and process and partners to make it happen, since there's not much precedent and there's no players or equipment specializing in this. So I would say those were the high level challenges and, as I was hinting at earlier, we started with a more traditional tannery like process. So we I spoke with so many tanneries took the material to different tanneries to, you know, test whether we could use the traditional equipments and methods and we quickly realized that that was not probably the most sustainable path. I think it could work, but when we think about our ambitions around scale was not the right choice for us. So we we then pivoted and, you know, continue to pivot, but I would say those are some of the challenges that we started off with.
Steven Ruffing:And that's all a part of the innovation process, and this might be a difficult question for you. But what leads and how do you approach the innovation and innovative process? Is it science, is it fashion, is it sustainability, or is it something else or everything?
Rachel Lee:It's everything a bit of all I would say.
Rachel Lee:for us, we are, first and foremost, science led, while always keeping the North Star of sustainability at play, and as a team, we've had to discuss what our core values are and how we set parameters, because, as much as I love fashion, fashion will always be subject to fashion and trends and we cannot, as a small team, change our direction. Every time there's a little bit of a different direction. So we found that also with sustainability, because when you think about what consumers and customers ask for, there's different flavors of sustainability that can be important, whether it's the greenhouse gas emissions, whether it's water and land usage, even language like is it bio-based or biodegradable? People define it differently and we try to be a good partner to many, but we cannot. We cannot. We have to pick focus and do what's right for us. So for us it's it's mostly science led with making sure our North star of sustainability is there, but ultimately we need to also care about fashion, because people will buy and sell what's attractive and it needs to look good.
Steven Ruffing:Absolutely. And let's talk about timing. How important was timing to you? Because when we talk about sustainability as a trend, it's only going up from here. How has timing played a role in that figuring out when to start developing this, with sustainability being at the a lot of people on on a lot of people's minds?
Rachel Lee:It worked out it worked out.
Rachel Lee:Because I would say that, like for me personally, when I got interested in it in 2019, and then starting on it in 2020, it didn't feel like as much of a mainstream dialogue. It feels like AI or sustainability, or tech. It's all of these languages where, ultimately, I think we'll be in a scenario of the world in which we don't have a tech company or an AI company or a sustainability company. It's every company is going to have to incorporate those elements into their business to go into the next phase of business and to survive. So for us, it's worked, it's worked out. But I would say, even within the past five years, we've seen ebbs and flows where people's willingness to pay looks different for brands. When business line, your bottom line, is impacted by a lot of macroeconomic factors, then how much is their willingness to pay around sustainability? I think those are things that we see vary, but overall, the macro trend is every company needs to care and will be caring about it.
Steven Ruffing:Absolutely so you have a sustainable product. But let's look at the production process. Where does sustainability stand in the actual production process itself?
Rachel Lee:Yeah. So I would say where sustainability comes in is in multiple steps of the process. So everything from the selection of what we put in it to how we process it, to how we think about the afterlife of it. So what we do in terms of our process is that we take the fungi that we grow through fermentation and we also take other plant-based polymers that are grown through fermentation as well, made through fermentation. In the case of stone McCartney material, we used sugarcane waste streams, polymers derived from sugarcane waste streams, so the benefit of fermentation and the fungi in addition to it just grown in a shorter period of time and it uses more resources from nature and we combine all of those inputs and then we heat them and mold them into sheets of different thickness.
Rachel Lee:So I was mentioning earlier that we moved away from more of a traditional tanning like process and there were many reasons behind that choice, including the fact that it opens up a lot of the. It really opened up the world in terms of who we can work with and for us. We use actually very common polymer equipment, so things that you might see in the plastics industry to make floorboards, lamination, etc. We're able to use those equipment and imagine the scale that we can make it with. But the other benefit of this is that it eliminates many steps and a lot of water, so the process doesn't use water. It's a pretty quick process, which leads to lower amount of resource and energy usage. And then, once we have the sheets and rolls of material, then we finalize with a top layer of finishing that can adjust color, hand feel and gloss to customers' liking.
Steven Ruffing:And it's a novel process. It's a novel product as well. Hearing all about that production process, how do you stay ahead in a space and an industry that's one incredibly competitive and two rapidly evolving?
Rachel Lee:Yeah, that is always the quintessential challenge for us. Until now, it's been getting to it's where. I think we go back to the principles that we mentioned because ultimately, I think there was a period of time in which the novelty and the sustainability alone was enough to merit enough curiosity for someone to try something. But looking ahead, that's not going to last. You need something that is strong and durable enough that it could be a mainstream part of a supply chain. That it could be a mainstream part of a supply chain, for example, it needs to independently look good and feel good, so that if I put it in front of someone and don't tell them what it is, they need to find it attractive independently, for example.
Rachel Lee:So I think that's how we think about staying ahead the making a material that is super durable what I like to call life proof that can survive and just grow with you and still look good and feel good. I think the piece where we that's probably the next phase for us is that we're still pretty small. So we're focusing on core colors and having a selection available and then also customizing for some brands, but we're not at a place yet to behave like the traditional, the traditional industry, where, for them, every quarter, every half a year, they're updating their color palettes, for example, and I think that's, I'd like to think that's next phase for us, but for now, focusing on what we're doing and providing options that stand through tests of time.
Steven Ruffing:Absolutely. I was just going to ask what is next for HIDA5? If you wanted to add anything else, whether it's new materials getting into new industries, anything like that because we did already talk about some partnerships and some new products coming out that we just can't touch just yet. So teasing the audience a little bit. But what else is next for Hidify? Where do you see this company going?
Rachel Lee:Yeah, when we think about what's next in terms of products, for example, hopefully you'll be seeing more of a different formats, different products come to life with different brands. Beyond that, for us, we're thinking about what else can we, what else can we bring to consumers? So, within the textile space, there are things like ultra, ultra soft, ultra supple material. That goes even beyond what we have right now. There's also some interesting potential for non-textile areas that our technology is able to get into, but with the quintessential challenge of a startup, we want to maintain focus. So, get this initial phase right and for us that's 2.0 and 3.0.
Steven Ruffing:Absolutely Now. Is there anything else that you wanted to add?
Rachel Lee:Maybe we left out, maybe that we didn't get to yeah, maybe to more fully address your question about what's next. There's the products, but I think when we think about the upcoming years and in the next five years I hope we are beginning to move from a curiosity to an accepted textile and while many designers are aware of the material, consumers have had limited opportunity to interact with high defy and also just this broader next gen materials at large. By then consumers are going to have proof points around how durable and how nice feeling the materials are. So we want consumer acceptance and adoption and my hope is that by this material becoming a more commonly accepted textile, this can open doors for other sustainable textiles and I think a big success will be an indicator for big success will be if we see traditional players, whether they're tanneries or large textile manufacturers, also start to provide options, because ultimately that's what we want consumers to have options to move and go towards that way.
Steven Ruffing:If there's one thing that the audience or the listeners can take away after this interview, what would that be? What would you want them to know the most about leather alternatives, specifically this fungi-based one that you guys have worked so hard on?
Rachel Lee:Yeah, I would like consumers to know that the future is here, it's not far away. We have sustainable materials that people don't need to compromise on, whether it's about their choices and they can feel good about making the choice. There's Hidify, and what I find exciting is there's also other innovators working and hopefully there will be more and more options for consumers. And I would say the other thing is, as consumers. I think you asked a question before around if we could change one thing about how the world thinks about materials, and I thought about that and I realized I don't think we think about materials. I don't think we think about materials enough, so that's the other thing. I hope that we could think about materials. I don't think we think about materials enough, so that's the other thing. I hope that we could think about materials more, whether it's you know the clothes we're wearing, you know the chairs we're sitting on, what are they made out of, what happens to them afterwards in the afterlife, and what are choices that we can be making in our day-to-day lives.
Steven Ruffing:Is there anything else that you wanted to add?
Rachel Lee:Thinking about what are the things that actually build to something. Being busy working on things doesn't always build to the right thing. So when we think about the choices and investments that we need to make early, that will unlock and accelerate everything else. So for us, that was investing in the right people and the product and the partners, versus nice to have that can wait. For us, the nice to have was the building, the buzz, the marketing, et cetera. I think that was a key lesson for us. It's like what are the critical must-haves versus the nice to haves that determine whether you have a business or not.
Steven Ruffing:So it's like anything. It took a village to get to where you are.
Rachel Lee:Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Steven Ruffing:Any social medias, any websites that you wanted to get out there, so people know exactly where to find you.
Rachel Lee:Yes, find us at hideifycom.
Steven Ruffing:Perfect, easy enough. Well, rachel, thank you so much for joining us. We're going to continue to follow as Hidify continues to grow, and we're looking forward to the future.
Rachel Lee:Thank you, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing:All right, everyone. That's all the time we have. We'll see you next time.
