The Four Worlds Podcast
The Four Worlds Podcast explores how a simple idea can grow into something that changes the world. Each episode takes you on a journey—from the spark of inspiration, through the creation process, innovation challenges, and to the path of real-world production.
From sketch to shelf and prototype to product, join us as we uncover the stories behind breakthrough inventions and innovations with the creators, engineers, designers, and visionaries who bring them to life.
The Four Worlds Podcast
How Selin Balci Turns Microorganisms Into Living Works of Art
In this episode, we are joined by artist Selin Balci, whose art begins not with paint but with living microorganisms.
A former forestry and microbiology student, Selin explains how she collects microbes from soil, trees, water, and even the human body, then isolates and cultivates them into controlled art pieces.
We talk about the science and art of sterilizing tools, nutrient mediums, contamination, and how she decides when to stop and when a piece is finished. We touch on her project, Echoes of Nature, in which mold consumes Polaroids of actual nature scenes to signify the end of nature as we know it, and 30 Faces, where people’s microbes reform the portraits of their faces over time, making them interactive.
Selin also ponders imperfection, rot, why contamination is not always a mistake, and the questions her art evokes about identity and sustainability.
If you’re interested in where art, science, and the natural world intersect, this is a rare glimpse into microscopic art.
Welcome to the Four Worlds Podcast from Tomorrow's World Today. We're diving into the latest in tech, science, and sustainability, from nature's mysteries in the world of inspiration, to the hands-on crafts of creation, the bold breakthroughs of innovation, and the scaled-up wonders of production. This is your ticket to the stories shaping tomorrow. Welcome to another episode of the Four Worlds podcast. We have an interesting one today. Joining us is Celine Balsi, an artist who turns living microorganisms into art. Celine, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for inviting me.
Steven Ruffing:Yes, no, we are excited about this one. Like I said, before we were recording, I spent a lot of time looking through your work, and it is truly fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, thank you so much. It's good to hear that.
Steven Ruffing:So I gave a little bit of a concise version of kind of what it is that you do. Tell the audience how you turn these microorganisms or mold, I should, we should say, into works of art. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:So I actually started like this is what brought me to the United States. So I started as a researcher. So I have a forestry background. I get my first degree at the Istanbul University in Turkey. So then I came to the United States as a researcher. And then I was like, you know, working in Morgantown, West Virginia. So there was a huge transition, actually. I was living in Istanbul, Turkey. And then I immigrated to West Virginia, Morgantown, West Virginia, which is like a very small, you know, little town, actually. So I was kind of like a little bit like bored in that little town. And I said, like, why don't I just you know start taking a couple of photography classes over there? So everything started with that, but you know, on the way, like, you know, things changed. So I was like taking a couple of classes, and then I graduated with a BFA actually, with an artistry minor and so on from the West Virginia University. So there I was like talking to, you know, I was like, you know, this is like my second degree, of course, over there, and I was like feeling like I'm a little bit late for the art world. I was only 25 years old, so you know, that's it's not that, you know, late. So then I was like talking to one of my professors over there, uh, one of my favorite guys, Joe Lupo. And then I said, like, look, yo, I'm just a little bit late for the art world. Like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna prove myself? And then how am I gonna start being an artist? And he was like, Celine, you're in a good condition, actually. You have to somehow find how to use your science knowledge and then how to just you know combine all things together, actually, in your work. And I was like, okay, there is something here. So, and then I started to look at that tea tree dishes with the microbes, like in a different way, actually, like in a different, completely like different eye. And then after that, I start to just you know experiment, of course. And I came to the University of Maryland for my MFA for three-year program. It's a long program that I started to work there. Actually, my question was like how I can use these microorganisms living in their comfortable life in the petri dishes, and then how I can just you know combine them with the art mediums like paper, like panels, canvas, how I can just you know combine them all together. So everything started like that, actually. So, but you know what? If I didn't have my background in microbiology, in forestry, I wouldn't be able to do anything like this in my own art practice, basically. So everything just you know blended like together in a good way for me, basically. And now, like, you know, just like how the painters are just using their oil paint or acrylic paint, or sculptors are just using marble or stone and things like that, I'm just using living painting agents, living in future dishes in my fridge, basically.
Steven Ruffing:So yeah, it is. It's funny. You let's just for example, uh, mold, as let's say, in a lack of better terms, gross as it is, you do see some interesting colors from it. You see greens, you see blues, you see all kinds of different colors. So when you're merging traditional art with this, with these biological materials, let's use mold spores, for example. What's that? What was that initial moment of realization that inspired you you to use the invisible world of microorganisms? You kind of touched on it a little bit, but when you're fully in there in that field, where did that come from? When did that hit you?
SPEAKER_00:No, I just I was just you know looking after that conversation with my professor. I was just you know looking at the picture dishes, and then I noticed like I have some color palettes, it's not a lot, it changes every season to season. Like, you know, I have yellows and greens and reds, and I noticed like you know, these are kind of like acting like paint, basically. So why I said, like, why don't I just you know use this as the art medium? So basically, like everything started with like that. So I was just you know checking them through the microscope and so on, but how they grow, like how they become basically, and then have that physical body, just you know, it's amazing, basically. I mean, they live in the nature right now. You're in that room, like you're on your skin, on the air, like we have like a lot of microorganisms living, but we don't see them basically. But if you give them the right conditions, right food material, they become like visible, and then they have like a physical body, like it becomes like red and orange and yellow and green and so on. And then that was just you know, very amazing. And then I said, like, why not just using this as like a painting agent instead of like uh you know, uh use the oil paint or acrylic? So that's you know how it just you know started basically.
Steven Ruffing:And when you're working on these projects, bringing the invisible visible, making the invisible visible, and you're going through it, you're working on a new project. How do you approach it? Let's say the incubation and the artwork, do you approach it more as an artist creating painting, or do you approach it more like a scientist kind of running an experiment, or is it a little bit of both?
SPEAKER_00:It's both for sure. But how it starts like this. So, what I do is first, as for the scientific part, I just go to my backyard or walk on a forest or on a park or something like that, and then I collect little tiny samples from trees, soil samples, leaves, and whatever I can find actually around me, basically. Because I was like specialized in plant pathology, so that's why I'm just you know always like going towards that, you know, plants and things like that. And then I collect my samples, bringing them into my studio, and then there's a certain scientific way actually of like isolating those microbes actually from those mediums. So, you know, you wash it with alcohol and bleach it and so on, and then you place them into the pizza dishes. After that point, they start to just you know grow actually from that, you know, stuff. But it is like you know, all of them like you know, combined, like you know, blended to each other. Then I isolate like every single color I see in the Pitri dish, like the reds and the yellows and all of those things, and then just isolate them and then create my color palette. So I have like you know, seven or eight, you know, different colors, not a lot. It changes season to season for sure. But after that, things start. But that is the scientific period big scientific approach at the beginning. So you call like you isolate, and right after that, still like it continues, it gives the science part gives the the work a little bit more like a structure. You have to clean everything, you have to work like you're like working in a lab environment, you have to sterilize, we have to use UV lights, lysol sprays, bleaching, and so on. So, all everything is like you know, and all of your tools need to be like very, very clean, otherwise, the contamination happened. We can more talk about the contamination later on, and then the artistic side comes in after everything grows. It gives me even like you know, for example, I have to give malt spores like uh potato-based agar. Then they just you know show their colors much better. If I give them like corn base, they're like flat, like they're they're not giving me any colors at all. So you have to research basically, like you know, you have to just you know figure out like is that are they gonna, you know, like the potato or are they gonna like corn? Like, you know, some of them love potato more, some of them love corn. So you have to test, you have to just you know, test in the petri dishes too, actually, like how they're gonna react to each other. Are they going to just you know grow and then just create a border right in the middle, or they're gonna grow on top of each other? Like it happens, they eat sometimes each other, so you know it happens too. So you have to just experiment at the beginning, and then you have to just you know start to the artistic part. So the artistic part is a little bit more like um emotional decision making, a little bit more. So after everything grows, the colors are established, the forms are established. Then I just you know start drawing them and then select the parts on the paper like that I love. So some of them are like you know, creating really nice borders. Actually, maybe you saw it on my website. So they create like nice borders. So I love that kind of borders actually. So they they that means actually they establish their own territories over there, and then they are like happily living right now in that living platform. Then after that, I just select and then I decide actually which one is gonna be in what you know, or in the in the or in the big installation, like you know, where are things that are gonna be basically because like my installations are usually like including like hundreds of different sized panels. So I have to just decide on which one is gonna be going well with the the other one. So I have to just you know decide artistically later on, but like you know, honestly, both of them are just you know included in the whole process, basically.
Steven Ruffing:Of course, when you're doing something that you're doing, you have a very uh specific background, you have a background in microbiology, and that just so happens to make beautiful art with the background that you learned in the scientific side. And when you're explaining that, it just how you're let's say growing these the mold spores. Do you get is it important to kind of get on that, let's say, personal level with this natural phenomenon that you're doing to create this art, trying to get in that kind of headspace before you create something?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I mean, I there's always an idea, but like you know, the idea is like more like bigger kind of like uh idea, like uh, because like you know, what happens is actually so I take them from the nature, put them into the peter dishes or like living platform. I give them the food, I give them the you know, the surface to live on. Sometimes it is only like you know, eight by ten inches big, sometimes it's 12 by 12, sometimes 16 by 20 inches big, but it's not huge. Everything is restricted in that environment. Like the food is restricted, water is restricted, the space is restricted, so they have to live. I see myself actually in there, like you know, as a human being, basically, like when they're like growing, because like they're trying to survive too over there in that environment, basically. They're like, Oh, okay, the food is kind of like you know, restricted, limited here. Let's get some more territory and then grow faster so we can survive, and then they just fight with each other, they create conflicts, there are like borderlines, like you know, achieved actually in the surface. So there actually I see a little bit us, the humans, so or our world, but we do like we are just using our resources again and again and again, and then we make wars and so on. Like, you know, we we I see some kind of like a human condition and behaviors actually, like you know, in that little container in the pits of dish or in the living platform. So there actually I see you know myself a little bit there. So all the content actually, all of my ideas like coming from that kind of like approach, right? It's like a mini kind of like uh prototype of our world in that little tiny space.
Steven Ruffing:That's an interesting way to to look at it. And just like life, nothing is ever perfect. Do you think that imperfection of and unpredictability of how these the microorganisms grow and develop? Does that make when you're creating a piece, does that make it a little more special as you're creating it, that imperfection?
SPEAKER_00:Certainly, uh, because I cannot eliminate the contamination. So so actually, like you know, you you may be useful, but uh one of my largest theories of the installations, it's called as contamination. So, what happened is actually like in the past, like when I was doing my master's, I had access to a scientific lab. So I had the UV lights to sterilize things, you know, all of those alcohols and bleaches and so on. And you know, the lab environment is clean, right? It's very clean, sterilized, and so on. Uh, but after I graduated, I lost that science lab access. So I was like, I ended up like in the artistic lab, artistic studio, which is not clean at all. Like, you know, I mean, I clean it, but it is like almost impossible actually to just clean all the surfaces. Like, I use like lysol sprays, Clorox, bleach, all kinds of like, you know, whatever I can find, actually. I clean everything initially. But what happens is like I use like um very highly nutritious medium, growth medium. So what happens is like we have lots of microorganisms on the air. We have I have things on my hair or on my skin or my hands, although like I'm using like gloves and then like the lab coat and so on. It is impossible to just eliminate all everything. So, I mean, even like you know, Alexander Fullimi, he found penicillium just like that. He left a couple of the pitu dishes in his desk, and then he got back from vacation, and then he was like, Oh, there's something growing, and he saved the whole humanity. Think about it.
Steven Ruffing:Sure, something, yeah, just like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so like we have everything all around us, like we are covered with microorganisms, mold spores, and things like that. We just don't see that. So once they just see that nutritious growth medium on my surfaces, they land there and then they start to grow. I, even though like I am just really cleaning all everything, it happens. And then at some point, I was trying to just eliminate the contamination actually at the beginning of my career. I was like, No, I'm not going to allow this, you know, little tiny dot growing over there. So I just, you know, wanted to just everything like you know, perfectly growing. But at some point I noticed like I am not doing a scientific experimentation, I am just creating an artwork, and this is not necessary because like I was wasting my resources basically, all of those scientific growth mediums and so on. It is expensive, so like I cannot waste it. And I said, like, why don't I just work with the natural forces? Basically, that would be much better actually for me. So I started to let it go, even though, like, you know, there are some actually contaminants like growing like very aggressively. So a couple years ago, I had that aggressive mold spore somehow contaminated all of my work. It was like growing like in like two days. I I still don't know like what it was actually, but it was like a black, hairy kind of like uh growth. Actually, it was growing and then like covering the whole surface, and then the other ones were like, we cannot grow here, so so that was really bad. And then I mean I cleaned all everything, and then you know, right now I'm clean out of that, so I somehow like you know, it is gone, but sometimes it happens, and then if it is not that much aggressive, I'm okay. If it is like uh very, very aggressive, and if it's really affecting the bird, I have to really clean it up, of course. At some point, I said, like, you know, I mean, I'm just going to use the contaminants, and then I'm going to call as title contamination, so why not? So you know, because and then it just actually like it nourishes the surface a little bit more because, like, you know, they come and then lend like a little tiny spot, and then sometimes, like, you know, it creates like a uh really good look, picture-wise, like really good look. So I at some point I said, like, you know, why not? So because I'm not creating any scientific kind of like a paper or like an experimentation, I'm just doing this for art, so let it go. So it becomes a nourishment on the surface, basically. I mean, it's exactly you know, we've worked with biological mediums, like you know, you cannot eliminate some of the things, so yeah, it's okay.
Steven Ruffing:And you know, I I I have a great appreciation for your science background and gathering these microorganisms, growing these microorganisms. I want to talk about your creation process and some of those projects. You you you talked uh a little bit about the contamination project. What about like echoes of nature? That one was really interesting to me. Let the audience kind of know what that is, this piece of art, a photo of mold accompanied by the sound of an alarm that represents something a little deeper.
SPEAKER_00:So I live in Annapolis. Okay, so that is Annapolis, Maryland, and then I'm just you know walking distance to the Chesapeake Bay. So whenever during the summertime, actually, whenever I'm just you know walking through the beach, like I see like lots of plastic, you know, little tiny plastic pollution on the sand. And also you cannot even just put your feet actually into the water, especially during the summertime because the bacteria population is too high, the toxic elements are coming through the whole country basically. It's so beautiful looking. The water is very inviting, but you cannot just put your even like in a feet on it, or like you cannot swim. So one of my neighbors actually, he's a little bit you know, older than me. So he said, like, you know, 40 years ago they were able to swim actually in Chesapeake Bay. So 40 years later, now we can't, we cannot even put our feet in there. And what is gonna happen in 10 years later then? So it is gonna be impossible to touch even to that water, basically. So I decided, so this is like a developing project, basically. So I said, why don't I just you know take the Polaroid photos of these beautiful landscapes? So the Polaroid photos are like you know, you can only take one photo, you cannot copy the Polaroid photos, it's a very old technique. So you have only one, just like our Earth, basically. We don't have to just look for other planets to live on or something like that. We have one, and then it's only one single one. So I said, like, I'm just gonna use a Polaroid film, which is gonna be only one, you cannot copy it. And then I said, like, I'm just gonna do the time lapse of like showing, like, you know, how they are just going to grow, basically. So it's that time lapse is actually like showing us like what is coming, what is on the way. And I said, like, why don't I just you know isolate the mold spores from that site specifically from that location that I took the photos of? So I am taking the photo, taking a couple of samples actually from that landscape, and then I grow that mold on top of the mold spore, and then just record the time-lapse. So the mold destruction on the image is like very silent, very slow, and you cannot stop it when you start. It's like mirroring like how environmental collapse often happens quietly in the background, like when we are like very busy with our lives, and then notice. Yeah, and then it's too late. Exactly. Time lapse is almost like becomes like a metaphor of like for denial. We don't notice. Then speed up though, like the you know, that's time-lapse was like about like a week or 10 days or something like that. But when I speed up, like it becomes like 45 minutes, uh 45 seconds to one minute or something like that. So when you speed up, like the truth becomes a little bit more visible, undeniable, it's very loud. And I wanted to just you know put that alarm sound in a very slow way, just to notice like, look, it's alarming. So pay attention, just don't you know, just notice things because in our busy lives. we don't i was just watching that documentary about plastic actually like how it's like accumulating like in the nature now it's like it's not even it's there basically so we cannot just eliminate it anymore right yeah the microplastics yeah there it's like everywhere now so it's just like so i decided to just you know put that into the Polaroid image and then destroy those beautiful images and then show it like in a time lapse just saying that you know this is what we're gonna be ending up basically if we don't act now everything will decay faster than we imagine and then it's like a review of a future that we will see maybe right it it puts things into perspective just when I watched it it really does it's something as simple like you said just a time lapse video just kind of shows you know what's happening in a quicker a little more digestible for the attention spans in the modern era right so so another one you you actually get interactive with your projects as well the 30 faces was another fascinating one and I'll probably do a poor job of describing it but you have participants kind of bring their own uh microorganisms into to you and then these microorganisms turn their portrait you can probably explain it a little better than me very like you know you're very right actually so what I did is like I asked the people to just you know take their Polaroid photos again uh because like they're like the one individual person like we cannot just copy that person basically so then I asked them to give me a sample from their body so it doesn't you know like their their skin or like they gave me some hair samples or they touched actually with their nose or with their face or to the pizza dish basically so I give them like one pizza dish with the growth medium on and then some of them like you know touch the pizza dish to their face and then whatever they have actually they live in you know in their body basically it started to grow in the pizza dish so I just waited like a couple of days like a week or so like you know until it grows like completely then I took those Polaroid photos and then I just transferred them into the regular paper and then I put the growth medium onto the Polaroid photos and then just you know applied the mold spores that they live with onto their portraits and then start to grow and then started to destroy their image first. Because like it this is another thing about my work like you know all the mediums that I'm using they're art mediums and then I have no idea actually at the beginning like how the mold spores are going to react with the photography you know like film. I don't know like and it obviously when the molds start to grow actually it just destroyed all of that film and then the color was like kind of like like distributed like through the whole image it was like you know weird kind of experience basically it destroyed the whole image it created like a new identity of those people so they're like represented by their microorganisms so yeah it it's I I encourage everybody listening to this to go to your site and look at the 30 faces project because and I I promise Celine I mean this in the absolute best way possible some of the portraits are like something out of a horror movie.
Steven Ruffing:I mean the world completely over overtakes the the portrait and it's just a fascinating visual to see this came from someone's body and that's their portrait and just like you said it kind of brings a new identity to that portrait.
SPEAKER_00:There was one interesting one actually on the portraits like I uh gave a Peter dish to a teenage and he just touched it with his face and I have never seen that mold spore actually before it was like growing like a forest really I mean it so it was like growing like usually you know mold grows like vertically and a little bit horizontally yeah I mean it's like you know it creates like a fluffy kind of things this one was like growing like a forest almost like a grassy kind of like a mold spore I I still don't know what it is but that was my center piece actually so I I really love that one. I I think I think we could tell this is like a PSA for teenagers personal hygiene is very important to wash your face exactly that's right but it's like you know it's very interesting actually like you know it was for the people like you know just to see what they had and some people didn't even want to just you know participated in this so I I did this project actually for the uh Baltimore Museum of Art for part of my uh exhibition over there um I I plan to ask I ask like you know 200 people uh I just wanted to just do like you know complete 200 people actually for the whole project I ended up with 120 couple people like you know didn't want to participate because like I mean they didn't want to just you know see what they have in their body. The other thing is actually like you know whenever I'm doing this project I'm just thinking death at the same time because like you know we have these things living in our skin in our bodies like in our gut right we have a lot of bacteria and so on living and we need them to survive basically so what happens is when we die what will happen is like those microorganisms will just have a feast on us and then they will you know decompose us and then we're gonna be part of the nature again like it is like a circle of life basically right you know this is like I mean this is how life like we have to accept that right this is how life continues in our world basically in our nature some people they were like you know what I just don't want to see it like you know because like maybe it was like reminding them dying and then some people said like I'm not going to give you my DNA actually like you know I cannot just you know take your DNA from your skin I I don't have that kind of like an environment in my studio I am like barely can do like you know I'll do the you know uncontaminated kind of like work like you know it's not gonna work I don't have that kind of equipment I wish I could do that I would just clone myself first you know that would be fun but like yeah some people are really like reacting like oh no no no no I'm not going to give you my DNA you cannot take it but I'll be I'm like I'm okay all right some people are like just you know seeing like what they have in their buddy they are really enjoying I mean most of the people that 120 people came to the exhibition and they were like looking for themselves and just you know trying to identify themselves and then they were like what do I have in my skin I mean mostly like you know very common malt spores are just growing actually from our skin so it's nothing is like you know dangerous or you know absolutely going to virtue something just you know living happily with them basically so they're part of our identity.
Steven Ruffing:Yeah exactly it's all part of us and I'm glad you talked about that kind of human interaction whether it's an audience or a participant reacting to this artwork because I'm sure just like you said it varies you know how people will react to that.
SPEAKER_00:So I like that little transparency and little peek behind the peek behind the glass when it comes to the human interaction with this now with the actual artwork itself how do you preserve these pieces because of course it is living organisms that you're working with how do you preserve them after the project or a piece is done so they grow so when they are growing I have to just you know give them the right foot right temperature right humidity and then they're all like growing in like uh plastic containers and so on and then after that I complete all that you know they they give me the colors they give me the forms and the shapes that I love then I have to stop it so stopping is meaning like drying the plates basically like all that living platform whether I use like paper or like a panel or like Polaroid photo I let that let it just dry very slowly so if you don't do that slowly then it's going to just mess up. You have to stop it at some point otherwise it is going to keep growing and growing and growing and it's gonna be like a you know weird kind of like a landscape so you don't want to see that. So I stop it at some point dry it and then after that I use epoxy resin on top but it is tricky too so I spent a couple of years actually finding that right epoxy resin. So I worked with like when I was at school I worked with painters and then all of my professors were like Celine how you are going to just you know preserve this because like you want to sell it or you want to you know exhibit like for a couple years or something like that. How are we gonna preserve it? I was like I don't know I don't I didn't have any answer. Yeah and it's like I tested like everything is like tested testing and error you know you try you error and then you just you know get back again and then you try to find the right material so I tested like a lot of different epoxy resin nothing worked for years. So like I think like what six seven years ago I found this like non-toxic epoxy resin. And then I said like if this works it works if not I'm not preserving anything. So I was preserving before then too but it was just the acrylic spray and you know and then the surface is like very biological very fragile and then you cannot just you know keep it like right you know like it's like old like renaissance kind of paintings because they were using egg tempora so like you will see all these like cracks on the surface of those things. So that was happening to me too because I'm using organic mediums too. Then I tested that non-toxic epoxy and it was like okay wait a second I found something so it was it is able to just you know keep the colors of course the fluffiness is kind of like you know kind of like going down a little bit but I can just keep the forms I can keep the colors I can I mean that those are the most important things in the work basically so with that I start to just you know preserve the work another thing is I don't know how long. So they're gonna see it in the way so I mean I have some work that is epoxy actually for you know more than six seven years now they're like you know staying still they're not gonna grow basically when I do exhibitions sometimes I put like uh living mediums actually and then you know things are growing and then changing during the exhibition time and then sometimes they call me from the galleries and as line the piece is kind of like dripping well it it will happen because there's the biological activities happening so I love that kind of like results too because like there's that cycle there's change colors are changing the forms are changing so I mean that is part of the work right but you know I love preserving it too now because like you know I have one exhibition right now for example at the uh Staten Island Museum and it's been there for like almost a year now the work you know it's still still and it's not gonna grow on the walls of the museum or something like that. So everything is like you know under the preservation. So this is under control.
Steven Ruffing:Yeah everything's under control. That's great. I love it. I love it. So looking forward Celine are there any other living organisms or scientific processes that that you're considering incorporating into your art what does that future for you look like well I'm always like you know experimenting just like that resin experimentation actually so I am just you know finding I mean the malt spores are always gonna be in my you know practice for sure so I mean and every some every season actually it changes the color I'm finding new types and so on more than that I am always like experimenting with the new art material like the Polaroid film.
SPEAKER_00:That was new actually so I said like let's give it a try are they gonna work together or not? And then it worked together. Now maybe I'm just gonna I was like experimenting actually with the ceramix pottery so I'm just thinking like is it gonna grow actually on the you know clay and then create something or not so I mean you have to always like you know be the scientist basically and then research find experiment if if it works it works. If it doesn't it's like you know all that six months of work is like gone. So basically like you know that's what I do like you know my experimentation will never ever going to end actually with this practice because I mean there are no written contexts for this I mean when I was when I was developing the you know during my graduate studies too like you know I didn't even know there was something called as bio art at that time that was like you know 2007 eight so that was totally new so I wasn't able to just you know reach to information the books and so on there were like a couple people working with it but you don't know how to I mean it doesn't give you like the directions instructions like take this put it over here or you know you have to just do it on your own basically you have to experiment on your own and then this will never ever going to end. So yeah it's all trial and error just like you said exactly exactly yeah exactly that's how you learn we love it Celine I appreciate it I appreciate your time just one last thing where people you can find your work if you want to throw your website out there because you can see a lot of your all of your projects on there and then if you're on social media social media I'm on Instagram microbial growth is you know what one uh my uh Instagram account also I have one exhibition going on actually at the uh Satan Island Museum until the summer actually and then there's one traveling exhibition with the faces in Germany right now so they can just you know see it actually on my Instagram account and also on my website that you can follow there.
Steven Ruffing:That's great. And once again I again appreciate your time and I encourage everyone to check out some of your projects because they are they really are fascinating. Celine thank you so much again for joining us. Thank you so much that was really fun it was really fun and thank you everyone for listening that's all the time we have today we'll see you next time thanks for listening to this episode of the Four Worlds podcast. Until next time you can catch up on the latest innovations shaping our world at tomorrow'sworldtoday.com follow us on Facebook and Instagram and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel
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